Transcript of Jonathan Haidt on Global Public Square w/ Fareed Zakaria Sun. Aug. 5th 2012
ZAKARIA: Given how polarized politics can be, I imagine you often stare at pundits on the TV screen and wonder what on earth are they thinking. Not me, of course. Other people. It's a good question. We often wonder why the other side doesn't get it, why they don't agree with our reasoning. Well, my next guest set out to explore this from a scientific perspective. Jonathan Haidt is the author of "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion." He is also a professor at the NYU Stern School of Business. He joins me now.
Welcome. JONATHAN HAIDT, PROFESSOR NYU STERN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS:
Thank you, Fareed.
ZAKARIA: So, the first thing I'm struck by in your work is you don't think that people adopt political positions entirely because of reason, because of rational reasons. They -- why do we end up being liberal or conservative?
HAIDT: Well, I'm a social psychologist. And the view from social psychology is that our principal goal isn't to go out and get as much stuff for ourselves as possible. Our obsession is that people around us like us, respect us, trust us, take us into their team. And so our political beliefs turn out to be largely badges and bumper stickers and things we do and say to impress certain constituencies, the people that we want to impress. They're not really based on any sort of careful calculation of what's best for the world or what's best for me even. We become quite tribal, and we adopt the signs of our tribe.
ZAKARIA: So we want to be sort of emotionally almost in sync with the people whom we hang out with, respect, admire?
HAIDT: That's a perfect way to say it. It's based largely on feeling.
ZAKARIA: Why is it that liberals don't get conservatives, but conservatives understand liberals?
HAIDT: There are a couple of reasons. One, as you and I know, if you grow up through Ivy League-type schools, you're exposed to liberal ideas constantly. I never really read anything by a conservative until I was in my late 30s. You have to actually seek it out. The other, the more psychological reason, is that if conservatives build on all these five foundations including loyalty, authority and sanctity and liberals kind of reject those, well, there aren't really moral foundations or psychological systems that liberals have that conservatives just lack, just can't understand. But liberals have a lot of trouble understanding like what -- what's going on with gay marriage, what could possibly be wrong with gay marriage? I just don't get it. You don't hear conservatives saying what could possibly be wrong with racial discrimination, I just don't get it. So, again ...
ZAKARIA: But they do seem to be utterly uncomprehending of a desire for more government regulation or some, you know, don't conservatives ...
HAIDT: It's not that they can't understand the desire, they disagree with this. So, there is a big difference between I understand what you are saying, but I disagree versus I can't even grasp what you think the issue is here.
ZAKARIA: And do you think that that gives conservatives some kind of an advantage?
HAIDT: In terms of elections it definitely does. Many people have argued, George Lakoff, Drew Western and many people have argued that the Democrats tend to make appeals that are more cerebral, more based on sort of arguments. And we saw that very recently with Obama's story about how -- well, if you have a business, you didn't build that yourself. And you sort of trot out a sort of a story about how everybody - lots of other people contributed to it. That's a kind of an argument that doesn't connect closely with these -- visceral moral foundations that I'm talking about. And I read a lot of right wing stuff. They're just - they're having a field day with it because their arguments about fairness and independence and hard work, those resonate - those resonate viscerally. The Democrats' argument is more cerebral. Yeah, you can kind of follow the logic of it.
ZAKARIA: Do you think that going forward, you know, doing - kind of whirlwind moving into -- do the Democrats have an advantage, do the Republicans have an advantage? How do you see the landscape?
HAIDT: Well, once thing I've learned from talking with political scientists is that, whatever my common sense views about elections are from reading the newspaper are wrong. And issues like the economy and the jobless rate, those are the most important factors. As a psychologist, I'm trying to contribute some other factors that matter. And I do think that in the older culture war about gay marriage and abortion, all that stuff, I think the Republicans did have an advantage. In the newer one about capitalism and fairness, I think -- I don't see a clear advantage on either side. Mitt Romney could make a very inspiring case for capitalism. I think one can be an aid. But I think he's making a bad case for it. And Obama's making a -- kind of a poor case - not exactly against it. I don't see a clear advantage to either side on these financial issues.
ZAKARIA: And -- you yourself are a liberal.
HAIDT: Well, I'm a liberal by temperament. And if you looked at my genes and my friends and all of that, yes. But in terms of policies and philosophy, I'm actually a centrist. In doing the research for this book, I really came to see that, you know what, both sides are right about the things they care most about. And they're right about the big issues they fought for in history. And if you just are a member of one team and you say, look, our side is right about, you know, gender equality, or our side was right about communism, I mean you see the things that your side was right about, and you're just blind. You don't see that there's all these other threats and problems and solutions that the other side is talking about. And that's where we are. The two sides just saying, we're right, no, we're right. Bang.
ZAKARIA: Jonathan Haidt, pleasure to have you on.
HAIDT: Thank you, Fareed.